The text that follows had been stored as a Word document in a file store service, whose owners were persuaded to take it down by Chris Grayston with vague "legal" threats about its contents. The text matches conversations I have had with a number of people who have entered Live and Unsigned in the past. It also contains descriptions that can be verified by other web postings in other places.
I am not claiming its 100% accuracy on all points - some of it is speculative, and the author acknowledges that. The importance of this article is in the articulate way it breaks down the false implications of Grayston's sales pitch and describes the wretched experience of many of those who enter it. It does makes an honest attempt to break down the weasel words used by Grayston.
Live and Unsigned 2011
I came across Live and Unsigned through a Google search for band competitions. On viewing the web site it seemed fairly clear, concise, well organised and constructed. It gave the impression of being a competition that could further a band’s career whether they won or not as they would gain exposure to a panel of influential judges and new audiences. However, on closer inspection…
Live and Unsigned website
Promises, inferences and suggestions.
“Home Page”
The home page you see is very persuasive – lots of “partnership” deals with other companies which suggests this is a serious commercial venture with influence in the music business. Noddy Holder, a one man musical institution, points out like Lord Kitchener implying that “You” are needed and also, like The National Lottery finger, suggesting that “It could be you” who wins, gains fame, gains those things that you want from life, and not what you and your band currently have. You could be tomorrow’s next big thing. On later pages more celebrities and industry names are invoked to convince you further of how legitimate and promising this all is.
“Prizes”
Under “The Prizes” it shows a wad of money being held as if you can hold that much if you win. It mentions “£100,000”. However, it does say “up to £100,000 in prizes” so there is a disclaimer built in – i.e. that’s the potential maximum amount of money in prizes they could give away over the whole competition, including the RRP value of amplifiers and other kit that Live and Unsigned is getting at cost price or for free from one of their partners, such as Black Star Amplification. In other words, you are not going to get that wad of £100,000 notes in your paws, nor anything approaching that figure.
“Venues”
The photo of the Live and Unsigned event at the 02 looks snazzy and persuasive showing spotlights, glitter balls and an apparently huge crowd. Other venues: Cardiff Coal Exchange, Sheffield City Hall, Royal Concert Hall Glasgow, etc. They are well known and are hired by major artists. However, “hired” is the point. These venues are businesses, and Live and Unsigned hired these venues as can anyone if they pay. So, for example, one venue is The Hove Centre, Brighton. According to LandU “Some of the world's best acts have walked this stage”. Maybe so. A quick look at The Hove Centre’s web site also shows that on Feb 26th at 10.30am the venue will hold a “Psychic and Holistic Fair” featuring “a gathering of Top Class Mediums, Clairvoyants and Astrologers”. Mediums. Clairvoyants. Astrologers. So basically anyone can put on what they want at these places if they pay. The rest of the wording on the “venues” page uses a superlative vocabulary: prestigious, largest, best, huge, regal, elegant. There is name-dropping: The Beatles, Hendrix, Blur, Black Eyed Peas, The Prodigy. By implication, your band could too be as big as these, playing venues as impressive as these.
I could continue in my slightly anal analysis of the many implications the web site throws out but I’d be here forever. However, I was vaguely convinced and thought I’d give it a whirl with my band. So here’s what happened:
What happens if you enter – actual events on the audition day
How To Enter: On the web site you fill out the form and pay them £12.50 per band and “if successful” (I wonder how many bands who paid were not successful…) you will be invited to the first audition. Not a bad deal considering what you’ve been promised on the web site – major national venues, serious and influential judges, lots of money, professional gear as prizes, national exposure, a record deal… It’s worth a punt. I paid. Details arrived via email. We were successful. Go to Cardiff Coal Exchange on Sunday 9th January where you will have the chance to perform for “up to 2 minutes and no longer” in front of a “prestigious judging panel”. Again the words “up to” appear, as in “up to £100,000 in prizes”.
The First Audition
We waited in the foyer with a load of other bands for about two hours, instruments out, ready to go. The staff were very courteous. They wore Live and Unsigned tee shirts. Very thorough, very professional. Bands were led in to the performance area through a door on the right, and came out to the left. We did the same. The gear on stage was fine and seemed to be of good quality. However, there was no time to sound check. A “prestigious” judge asked us some perfunctory questions and then we played, at most, one minute of a song. The sound was terrible due to speed of set up. They stopped us mid-track, said thanks. We moved off to wait with the other bands in our group – bands are arranged by name alphabetically, A-D, D-H, etc., each group given 1 hour. We were all then gathered into a small room and told how well we’d all performed, give yourselves a clap, the “prestigious” judges have never seen such a high standard before. And the results were given band by band. “So and so ... You’re through!” No one failed. Every band was through. Brilliant! Our £12.50 had been worth it, as had getting us all together for the day, waiting for 2 hours or more, and driving two vehicles to Cardiff and back. And the money and time and effort of every other band had been worth it too.
When you win – sign a form and cough up
One band member is then required to fill out and sign a form about the next round of auditions – “The Showcase Regional Finals”. In all honesty, I don’t remember many of the details of the form. I signed it. Oh, and in order to guarantee that LandU aren’t wasting their time on bands not turning up you have to give them a refundable deposit of £30. I paid. So now I’d forked out a total of £42.50. You have to speculate to accumulate, right? And I’d get the £30 deposit back. I handed over the form (you don’t get a copy presumably so you can’t remind yourself of what you agreed to) and the money (as did, as far as I could see, every other band who got through) to a man at a desk with a laptop. He didn’t say much. He handed me my golden ticket to the chocolate factory – a white envelope containing further details for the next round and twenty five tickets for friends and family to come and watch. Great! We’re through. We’ll go to the next audition at a prestigious venue in front of another, presumably bigger and more prestigious, judging panel, and we’ll get some serious exposure in front of a big crowd, and we’ll get our deposit back, and perhaps someone important will be there and we’ll get booked for some gigs that pay us money rather than the other way round, and maybe we’ll get a record deal and …
The White Envelope
We piled into the cars. We drove off. I got out the magic envelope. On the front, apart from the LandU logo, were the cryptic numbers 1151 – 1175. Nothing else. Inside were 25 tickets (which I assumed were a reward for us getting through) and a sheet of A4 headed, “Essential to read, keep and refer to”. I read it, since it was essential. There was a lot of congratulation. We would be performing “alongside the best talent in your region”. I guess by implication we fell into that category too. There would be “industry judges including National Radio, BBC Introducing, Regional Press and celebrity judges plus a special guest act”. We had taken “a big step”.
But taking part wasn’t that simple. We couldn’t just turn up and do our stuff. It was going to be tough. “Now is the time to focus on the live show and your regional final … It is important that you read the following information to maximise your chances of winning … and to ensure you organise early”. The information was already flagged as “essential” but now it was “important” that we “focus” in order to “maximise” our chances. Could we do it? What was needed? I’d never maximised before. They explained.
The “Essential to read, keep and refer to” sheet - requirements for entering the showcase regional final
The information sheet is divided into several sub-headings:
“Publicity”
“Now is the time [again] to get loads of publicity from your local papers, websites, radio, social networking sites, your own social network and media to give you maximum coverage … your ability to do this demonstrates, not only to us but to the music industry, your motivation and enthusiasm – more importantly it gives you exposure and media contacts.”
So if you are motivated and enthusiastic about your band you will sell it hard in order to demonstrate to the music industry how motivated and enthusiastic you are. What sector of the music industry? Who in the music industry? It could be pointed out here that getting yourself “loads of publicity” also gets LandU loads of (free) publicity that “you” do all the work for. The more publicity you generate the better because, you find upon further reading, there are “awards” for the best publicity drive.
Well, not the best, but the biggest.
This is where “up to £100,000 in prizes” kicks in. You might win something tangible once you’ve put in a shed load of effort into selling yourself, or more specifically Live and Unsigned (and possibly annoying the hell out of everyone around you). But we’re assured it’s for our own good because, “you will get out what you put in, and it’s something you should be doing anyway!”
“Exposure Award”
“There will be an award for the act with the largest quantity of submitted publicity material in relation to the competition. The act with the most press cuttings or recorded radio interviews on each Regional final day will win a free day in the recording studio of their choice worth up to £250.”
There they are again – those two little words, “up to”. In my experience one day in a good studio is about enough to do a basic demo of 3 songs. And surely any band can cobble enough money together for one day in a studio. And I suspect most bands entering this competition have already done so. Not much of an award then, really.
The prize is for “quantity”. Not quality.
“Blackstar Exposure Award”
Again …
“There will be an award for the act with the largest quantity of submitted publicity material in relation to the competition. The Band with the most press cuttings or recorded radio interviews on each Regional final day will win a free Blackstar HT-5 half stack amplifier and cap worth in the region of £550.”
“In the region of”. A Google search reveals that these amps retail “in the region of” £399 at most online stores. And that word “free”. A free amp. A free day in the studio. How could you win something and it be anything other than free?
The prize is for “quantity”. Not quality.
“You Tube Exposure Award”
“There will be an award for the act with the highest number of You Tube views of their Live and Unsigned filmed footage. The winning acts or bands each month will receive a support slot with one of our headlining acts at the showcases (see below for act names).”
OK. So that doesn’t cost LandU anything they haven’t already spent.
Oh, and the prize is for “quantity”. Not quality.
“Tickets”
Now here’s the rub … The 25 tickets for friends and family aren’t gratis. You can’t just give them away, you are expected to sell them:
“As a minimum, acts will be expected to sell all 25 tickets to fans, family and friends. In most cases it would be expected that contestants will come back for more.”
(You thought this was about musical talent and inspiration?) And if you don’t sell the tickets you can’t go forward.
25 tickets at £7.50 each is £187.50. You have to hand over this money at the showcase regional final if you want your deposit back, and if you want to play. So now you’ve paid £12.50 entrance fee, plus a £30 refundable deposit and you’ve sold £187.50 worth of tickets (or if you can’t sell them all I guess you buy them yourself). You give this money to LandU. You get your £30 deposit back. You have made LandU £12.50 plus 187.50 so far - £200.
What have you got in return so far? Probably nothing really because the chances of you winning the above “awards” (do you get a statuette?) are slim given the huge number of bands who enter the first auditions and then get through to the next round. But you do get to perform at the showcase regional final (more on that in a minute). However, you and your band mates will have done the following so far:
1. Paid an entry fee of £12.502. Travelled to and from the audition venue and waited with a lot of other bands3. Performed about 1 minute of one of your song to a panel of about 8 people4. Most likely got through to the next round, along with all the other bands in your group5. Been told you are very good, congratulations6. Sold 25 tickets at £7.50 each to friends and family netting LandU another £187.507. Worked very hard at producing “the largest quantity of submitted publicity material” in an attempt to win one, two or all of the above awards in order to get an amp worth “in the region of £550”, a day in a studio “worth up to £250” and a support slot.
“Tickets” - But that’s not all …….
You are encouraged to sell as many tickets as possible, not merely 25. Why would you do this? Because:
“On each Regional final day we will award the act that sells the most tickets with an offer of supporting some of the UK’s best known acts such as; Kate Nash, You Me At Six, Twisted Wheel, Dodgy, Bury Tomorrow, Twin Atlantic, Sandi Thom, Toploader, LightsGoBlue, Everything Burns, The Xcerts, Not Advised.”
Again, a support slot is the “award” that motivates you to “sell the most tickets”. That’s a lot of work for a support slot. A lot. Who you support is decided “according to genre and region.” Hmmm. I wonder if the band gets to choose what genre they are and who they support, or maybe LandU decides. Any thrash bands want to support Kate Nash?
(Aside: Money made so far
At this point the cryptic numbers hand-written on my white envelope start to make sense. “1151 – 1175” must be the quantity of tickets given out so far at Cardiff Coal Exchange by the time I handed over my £30 after our audition (1151 plus our 25 tickets equalling 1175). We were on towards the end of the day so let’s imagine we were the last band. That’s 1175 tickets handed out with an expectation that each ticket be sold. 1175 times £7.50 = £8,812.50
There are 16 audition centres. 16 times £8,812.50 = £141,000
Also, on each audition day bands are grouped alphabetically into 7 time slots of one hour each. You have a max of 2 mins to perform. We were definitely in and out before 2 minutes were up. 2 minutes into 60 = 30 bands. 30 bands per hour times 7 time slots = 210. 210 bands times 16 venues = 3360 bands. 3360 bands times £12.50 entry fee = £42,000.
So by the time the showcase regional finals begin LandU have made some pretty serious money. £141,000 plus £42,000 netting a tidy sum of £183,000 so far. All this, of course, assumes that each band sells the minimum amount of 25 tickets. If you want those prizes you need to sell more. Much more. Of course, some bands may drop out before they begin the hard sell but, hey, LandU still have your £30 refundable deposit which they won’t give back to you because you let them down, so it’s not all bad news. LandU will point out that they have big overheads. To the tune of £183,000? I wonder.)
“Tickets” - another reason for you to sell as many tickets as possible:
“Judging”
“In order to progress to the area final you must be in the top Judges score, the highest judges scores will automatically proceed. For the remaining acts; their Judges scores will be added to the audience voting and ranked (audience get to cast two votes for who they think should proceed to the Area final using their tickets). The acts with the combined highest ranking from audience and Judges votes will progress to the area final.”
So. One act from each region gets through based on the judges’ scoring alone – i.e. you might get through based purely on what the judges consider to be talent. The other bands get through with a combined score using judges ranking and audience votes. Audience members (i.e. ticket purchasers) get two votes each so the more friends and family you have sold to, the more that turn up, the more votes you get, the greater your chance of getting to the area final.
So, if you’re relying on, say, talent, artistic ability, musical aptitude, well … Sell more tickets, since the band with the most mates and family voting for them is going to get through.
Still motivated? Still feeling like you can cut it in the rough and tumble world of the music industry? Yes, because you are a creative soul in a creative band with great tunes and you’ll do what it takes to show the world.
The Showcase Regional Final
“Sound checks and registration on the day”
“As soon as you arrive one representative form each act must register in with the organisers. At this point please have ticket sales all calculated in full and in an envelope along with your publicity. Ensure it is all completed, marked correctly, in advance and ready to hand in at this point. Please do not register until you have checked this is done correctly. – if this information is not provided we cannot complete registration and you will not be able to compete.”
In other words, show us the money or get out, and forget your £30 deposit. And note how woolly language like “up to” and “in the region of” has suddenly been replaced when you need to do something for LandU. It’s very, very specific now. They’ve even underlined it.
“Performance”
“All acts are asked to perform 2 songs in the order they like … to total 3 minutes and 30 seconds maximum and the songs should flow seamlessly into each other … These times are strict and you will be penalised by disqualification from the competition if you go over this time.”
3 minutes and 30 seconds for 2 songs. After all your work publicising on local radio, You Tube, the local press, websites and social networking sites, after trying for the various prizes by being “the act with the largest quantity of submitted publicity material”, after flogging a minimum of £187.50 worth of tickets and paying your entrance fee, and travelling to and from the audition venue, bugging your fans, friends and family to come in order to make sure you get a good chance at getting to the area final you get 3 minutes and 30 seconds to perform 2 songs. That’s less time than most pop songs take in entirety. And that’s hit the stage, play, get off within that time or you are disqualified. Regardless of how much publicity you generated or how many tickets you sold.
What time is the sound check by the way? The one at the Coal Exchange in Cardif is at “5pm” and our performance time was down as 8.15pm. It takes us about 1 hour and 20 mins to get there. That means – leave at 3.30pm. Get there at 5. Perform at 8.15. Wait for the show to end to find out results (can’t see anything about end time on the sheet). Drive home. That’s a long time – possibly 12 hours total. To play for 3 mins and 30 seconds. In front of a prejudiced audience who have bought their tickets from their buddies and family members in the band they’ve come to support, an audience that is not going to vote for you no matter how good your band is.
“Feedback”
“On the day of the show it is planned to obtain feedback direct from the judges, so please check out Judges comments’ after the weekend of your show on the website and Facebook. The judges will also provide selective feedback on acts on the day during shows.”
I don’t understand the first sentence. I don’t think it makes sense. Overall, I think what they mean here is that only a small number of acts will get actual verbal feedback on the night. Other bands might get some feedback on a web site but they’ll need to look it up because LandU don’t bother to send useful feedback to you directly at the web address you’ve given them. Despite your efforts so far and the money you’ve made them. Once again, when it’s about LandU giving you something the language has suddenly gone a bit woolly. What on earth does “it is planned to obtain feedback” mean? Could the plan go wrong?
“Professional photos” (£17 for 12) and “Filming” (£37, no specified length – “a vital marketing tool … a great value for money opportunity”) are also offered. Of course, all shots and films of your band on stage at the showcase regional final will have a large banner in the background saying “Live and Unsigned” so you’ll also be paying them for the privilege of advertising them again.
And the final words on the info sheet:
“Go for it and enjoy it! You will get out of the competition as much as you put in … Best of luck!”
My band is stopping at home. No selling ourselves and thus LandU to “fans, friends and family”. No hassling the press or local radio, or bombarding websites and social networking sites. No giving LandU masses of free publicity at our expense. No paying £187.50 to play for 3 mins 30 seconds. No attempt to win amps we can buy without too much grief. No effort to get a day in a recording studio worth “up to” £250. No making ourselves hideously unpopular by telling all around us that this is a great opportunity and if you believe in us, in me, you’ll fork out your money and come to support us on the night.
But we still made LandU £42.50 for the privilege of playing for 1 minute without a sound check to about 8 anonymous people who gave us no feedback.
The website again: “Previous Winners”
Have you heard of them?
2010 – “The Lottery Winners”2010 – “Underline The Sky” (Apparently they won in the Rock category, although I’m a bit confused by this as I can’t find mention of categories in other years)2009 – “The Detours”2008 – “Kiddo 360”2007 – “B-Kay and Kazz”
That’s where the list stops.
A Google search of previous winners shows me this pretty quickly:
The Lottery Winners do not seem to have a web site. They do not appear to have a CD for sale. They do not appear to have any notable commercial success. Their MySpace page lists 9 gigs pending for 2011. Underline The Sky have a downloadable EP available via their web site. They do not appear to be signed to any label. The Detours don’t seem to have a web site or a record deal. Or many gigs. Kiddo 360 don’t have a web site or anything for sale in a shop. Or many gigs. B-Kay and Kazz have no web site or record deal that I can see.
All seem to have a MySpace or Facebook site, but then anyone can put one of those up for free.
Perhaps I’m not looking hard enough. I would but I’m getting tired of all this now …
Final thoughts
Live and Unsigned is well-presented, glossy and convincing. It promises great things. It offers promotion, record deals, live exposure, music industry connections, prizes, studio time, publicity, professional feedback, tours, support slots, major venues, success.
What it delivers is something akin to pyramid sales – pay £12.50 for a chance to excel! Come inside! Guess what? You’ve won! You’ve got what it takes. Now we need a deposit of £30 for your big chance, but you’ll get it back.
Now go sell Live and Unsigned to your “fans, friends and family”. Sell a lot. Sell at least £187.50 worth of tickets. Why? Because you have to in order to enter the regional final that you have qualified for, and to get your deposit back. And don’t forget, you qualified at an audition where the impartial and “prestigious” judges saw that you have talent, you’re in with a chance, and you wouldn’t want to squander your talent, would you? You could be on stage like The Prodigy or Hendrix or Blur. You could make it!
But sell more than 25, because if you are truly committed to your talent you will want to sell more, and you’ll also be getting more votes for your band. Remember, each ticket is worth 2 votes and the more you sell the better your chance of getting through to the area final, whatever your talent or the talent of others.
Sell not just tickets but the idea of Live and Unsigned. Sell it hard. Sell it to the press, to radio, to social networking sites. Sell it under the guise of selling yourself, because you believe in yourself and your talent, because selling impresses “the music industry”. And then the base of the pyramid spreads. Maybe mum and dad will sell tickets for you and tell everyone about their kid who got into a prestigious band final. Perhaps other bands will hear about your progress and will want to take part in LandU. Perhaps they’ll pay, and then sell tickets to their friends and family and hassle the press and local radio and then the base of the pyramid will go to another wider layer and, hey presto, you’re not a musician after all. You’re a salesman flogging snake oil to whoever will listen. You’ve been duped and now you’re duping others. How insidious. Still, at least the head of Live and Unsigned made a ton of money, eh?
I dread to think what awaits bands that get through the “showcase regional final” and hope to play at the area final. Another white envelope inscribed with cryptic numbers?
If you know someone in a band - please pass this on to them. "I wish I had known before I signed up" is not such a good place to be.
Ha, what a beautifully written piece. Sorry you got skanked but consider this essay some form of compensation when it helps others.
ReplyDeleteWe're not in a band, we do stuff for independent and DIY bands (shameless plug: www.eyeseesound.tv) but everything we do for them, we pay for (insane, I know, but that's what you do when you love music and the DIY scene).
I have come across the Live & Unsigned website though. Call me a cynic but I saw it and thought tossers peddling false hopes to kids who really want to make it. We dismissed them as anything of any value to the DIY and independent scene. Looks like you proved us right after reading this.
Again, sorry you got shafted, and sorry to others who have too, but good on you for spending the time and effort to write this. And good luck.
This is sad, unfortunately it doesn't sound illegal but morally, it's awful. They're taking advantage of young people sucked into the 'making it' dream, and obviously making A LOT of money.
ReplyDeleteI once paid £30 to enter my songs into a "Songwriting Competition" - it seemed genuine, and maybe it was. Even if you didn't get shortlisted you were promised feedback on your work, but it turned out to be a couple of lines, and it seemed obvious that all he did was read one or two lines of the lyrics I'd sent along with the recording.
And so I learnt: NEVER PAY to enter a genuine competition.
Who the hell cares what these panel people think anyway? So some dude has an MA in songwriting, it doesn't mean he knows anything more about whether what you're doing is good or not. Upload your song to youtube or soundcloud, something like that, and get some genuine feedback from genuine people, the people are going to support you and (possibly) buy your music in the future.
I think after reading this I'd rather audition for the X Factor than audition for Live and Unsigned, yep. I'd rather get bitten by a snake then audition for the X Factor, so there ya go.
Very good point Steph. Never 'Pay To Play' in anything, including these new skank websites which ask you to pay for them to submit your band for gigs and festivals. It is all a con fleecing bands for money because most people around the periphery of music are too lazy or too unemployable to get a real job or do something of value.
ReplyDeleteThanks to both of you for popping in! If you can take it there is a long running discussion in Leeds - a city with a tradition of resisting pay to play. Just here: http://tinyurl.com/yhvlyfh
ReplyDeleteJon Gomm, the guitarist, played a big part in running the US operation Emergenza out of town when they tried to stage an event at Leeds' Hard Rock Cafe a few years back. Jay Mitchell (previously employed by Emergenza and now running his own "Surface Unsigned" scam) and Chris Grayston (the one-man unsigned band behind Live and Unsigned and Open Mic UK) have avoided the city ever since.
The point is that most bands make no money and reach only small audiences (even bands we have all heard of). There are no shortcuts, and there is no secret wisdom. If there were, Grayston and other self-appointed experts would be making money directly, not grubbing it through the friends and families of beginner bands on fantasy trips.
BBC Introducing is by far the most useful route to a bit of national attention (assuming you have already made a small dent or your nearest local scene). If you can't get played there, you are a genius of the first order, or simply not good/distinct/prepared enough yet. Good luck all!
brilliant review , i have literally got back this afternoon from seeing my boyfriends band , and I considered them to be one of the most original bands there ! Apparently that is what they look for , but no they let an 'n-dubz' wanna be band with a whore looking front woman who can't sing , but with a MASS of friends and family supporters. Really does show that it is all about the money.
ReplyDeleteoh man this is so true and genuine i have taken part at these competions before l&u and open mic and you have explained it exactly but with a difference, one wouldnt notice this as soon as they hear they are trough and never in my mind did it seem like a money making scam as everything is well tought out and looks glossy but hey i can realte to every bit of wording on this page, i have stopped taking part in this competition cos it is true this is not about talent but how much tickets you can sell and unfrotunatley a lot of artists and bands get sucked in this!! lets just say it is a legal scam
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMy kids and their bandmates, entered this last year (2010) and reading this makes me realise what a lucky escape they(we) had
ReplyDeleteThey did the 2mins (which was filmed) & posted on you tube (btw it sounds terrible) due to no soundcheck were told how wonderful they were and sent to the holding area to await the descion of the the judges, they were told it would take only 10 minutes an 90 mins later despite still being constantly told how wonderful they had been throughout the wait suddenly were told no didn't make it & goodbye.
I think what perhaps saved them was they were all under 18 and even those running it didn't want to appear to fleece kids or worked out they had little profit value in the long run
Oh and the feedback came a few weeks later and was very constructive and deep one liner "You must listen to each other"? This sounds like a quote pinched from Yoda or Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi
A £12.50 life lesson perhaps was the best way at looking at it ... On the positive side through word of mouth & putting their EP online they have continued to play & gig maybe sometimes to just one man and is dog but are slowly building a fanbase which has resulted in them supporting some really good up and up & coming bands.
Thanks whizznchips. Feel free to post a link to the music. If my feedback is worth a bean to you I'm happy to offer it for free!
ReplyDeleteHi Sam reading your blog you suddenly get a view of the bigger picture & realise the scale and money being made on the backs of young talented people giving them false hopes that there is a guaranteed route to a record contract. I can only speak from the experience of my kid’s band & they are often sent mails promising them untold opportunities if they part with a monthly sum. But they realise that (after parting with £12.50) it’s down to hard work, talent & lots of right place right time sort of luck.
ReplyDeleteI would like to say it’s not all negative they have met some really good people who have offered them some great support, advice & opportunities in the short space of time they’ve been together.
Anyway here is there FB link
https://www.facebook.com/chasetheenemy?sk=app_178091127385
BTW they are always being compared to a big American pop/punk band (much to my daughters annoyance (lol) which I think will become clear when you go to their page. Enjoy or not as the case maybe thanks again for the blog
whizznchips can you send me an email so I can get back to you personally with the feedback? My email address is sam.saunders.otley…@…gmail.com (without the … botspoilers). I have had a listen to some tracks and I have to say thery are way too good to get involved in L&U nonsense. Happy New Year!
ReplyDeleteHi Sam,
ReplyDeleteMy son was due to be auditioning in Derby on Saturday but after reading your blog I think we'll give it a miss - I think it's an absolute disgrace & I'm really thankful that somebody else shared your blog on the live & unsigned link on facebook! I think we may have had a lucky escape!!
Hi Sam
ReplyDeleteA rainy Sunday morning, we travelled 70 miles to be greeted with an experience identical to Whizznchips! No point in sharing the same four hour trudge, punctuated by a disapointing 'No!' to a small band of 16 year olds, but here's my thoughts for what its worth to anyone out there.
To entice performing bands with the tantalizing promise of a fast track to stardom for an up front payment is morally wrong, even worth a possible 5 min slot on Watchdog Oooooh! :) I agree totally with the 'too young to rip off' comment. Think it saved our talented but young performers too. Dare I say it, but I was expecting a voice somewhere in the 'waiting room' to echo over the tannoy '"Cheeeeldren come out, come out where ever you are, sweeties and chocloates and a live gig with someone famous is waiting right here for you" (The dodgy ugly chap from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang if you're wondering:)) Just bring us your piggy bank and we'll do the rest.
I was in a band in the eighties, we never had a PC, the wonderful WWW or any markeing, other than a promoter who was brilliant at getting us gig after gig and who only took a fee if it was a paying one. The one most important facet to any band are the fans, the more of them there are, the more sellable the band. It's a hard slog, no short cuts, gigging at every opportunity, sometimes begging venues and promotors to let you support a more established band further up the ladder. This for nothing and still having to fork out for the fuel.
So why did we do it? We gigged not for the cash which was sparse at best, but because IT WAS FUN! IT WAS A BLAST! Forget fame and fortune, if you're really unique, you're really talented and you do the miles, you will build a following, you will enjoy it and you may just get picked up you never know....after all that's what it's about isn't it? I applaud those out there helping young bands promote themselves and all for free, the easy to use web templates like get-ctrl and the like. Now thats real constructive stuff. Forget pay to play, its fine if you want to experience a gig or two at a big and different venue and to learn about promoting your band, but it will never replace hard work and graft.
Good luck to all of you out there gigging and entertaining, putting a smile on that 'man and his dog's face' (yes dogs enjoy a good band too I've heard, though I've never seen one actually smile!) and bigger crowds of course.
There's a footnote here. After our long journey back, my son (the bands guitarist) went straight to his guitar and played for over two hours solid. I was really pleased and said "its important to get back on your horse after you fall off" "Nah!" he replied "I never fell off it in the first place" Nuff Said!
Kids are great, aren't they? That's where the energy is. So it's our job as older ones to keep an eye out and stay positive. Better still, music is something you never grow out of - you jus tkeep on finding new ways of enjoying it. Fame is rather different.
ReplyDeleteWell said everyone. Spread the word and hopefully Live and Unsigned will crawl back under their slimy rock. I have sent the article to Noddy Holder and Anne Nightingale. I'll let you know if they reply!
ReplyDeleteI really wish I had read this prior to my band attending the local auditions this weekend past!
ReplyDeleteWe've just got put through to the regional finals and in all honesty I had my suspicions about it all from the word go but thought what they hell! It only cost us £10 and we thought it worth for experience if nothing more, Another tick on the bucket list so to speak!
The fact that previous entrants have taken the time to carefully detail out its underlying agenda and problems gives heed to me now that we have made a foolish decision despite our original elation at being put through!
It does seem like a pyramid scheme and what really put me off, as you have said, is when they go on about selling tickets and pushing ourselves out there into the media world, all seems a little bit much for such an apparently 'prestigious' competition. And now after having read this, my suspicions have heightened!
I think we are going to continue along on this journey, more so as a morbid curiosity to see what this LandU is really all about and because we've already paid our tenner ;)
Thank you for this though, it gives me time to get my head in the game and make sure that LandU don't try to rip us off or mess us about. It is a shame though as the premise of this national competition seems awesome! Just a shame the money men have their grubby claws all over it!
\m/x\m/
Thanks for the comment Wulf - and please do pop back to let us know how things went. For your sake I hope you get a lot out of it. Don't be tempted to spend your own money on text voting though!
ReplyDeleteI entered this competition this year and have got through to the regional finals. I have been researching and there are lots of sites like this saying LandU is a scam. Not sure whether I should continue with the competition now but I am thinking that maybe even if it is a scam there might be some good contacts and opportunities. I might just carry on with the competition just to see where it goes.
ReplyDeleteThanks for this blog by the way, it was very useful.
Thanks for commenting Daisy. Let us know how you get on if you do follow it through. But better still, snd a link of some kind so I can hear your music.
ReplyDeleteHi, just to let you know that I have decided not to continue with the competition. I did email Live and Unsigned to let them know and received a pretty nasty email back.
ReplyDeleteWell done Daisy! Did you see that a complaint has been made to the Advertising Standards Authority? A former winning band are unhappy. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-16355713
ReplyDeleteNot to mention the money they made from the texts................................
ReplyDeleteHellbells, you are right.
ReplyDeleteI think that the use of text voting has changed in the last year or so, but in the past I have asked L&U about how they stop multiuple text voting. They did not reply.
HOwever, I have had one conversation with a previous "winner" who told me that members of his band spent a lot of money on multiple text voting. Live and Unsigned is a one-man commercial exercise whose sole purpose is to make a lot of money. Grayston himself has no experience whatsoever of managing or promoting successful artists. His experience and expertise is in recruiting gullible amateurs to work for nothing. In my opinon he is not interested in music or in fostering talent.
Just read that article and some of the information is incorrect as it goes for this year...obviously the prices are different but there is nothing about not selling tickets and not getting in...my band played the regional finals in newcastle on sunday and we got through to the are finals although we had not given them any publicity and had only sold 10 tickets...i know of another band who also got through who didnt sell any tickets or have any publicity at all...and i know another group who had sold 30+ tickets and didnt make it...indicating that you are not required to sell tickets or have publicity to make it through to the next round - just thought id point that out :)
ReplyDeleteAnother thing that is different this year is that they are saying everything is being filmed for sky tv and a show will be made afterwards so i dont see why if they are just a scam they would want to do that, if you get my point.
One thing i was dissapointed with was the so called celebrity judges as i had never heard of any of them and the 'special guest acts' were acts that had made it through to the O2 live fest from the previous year, however my point is if they had a bad experience, and in fact thought it was a scam themselves after playing the O2 then why would they come back the next year to be special guest acts?
Im not backing up live and unsigned here because they very well could be or could have been previously a scam and my band could be falling right into their trap however i am just stating some very valid points that make me think otherwise and i dont think my band are ready to give up on it yet but ill let you know how it goes from now on :)
Also i would like to take this as an oppertunity to promote my band a little more so her is our facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/NoMoreHeroesMiddlesbrough
Many thanks for your update Shawmarr. Good to see a mention for Middlesbrough! I worked there for many years and went to a couple of gigs in The Crypt (is it still putting on bands?)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the Sky TV story is (I believe) that L&U are using a satellite channel (like the Sky channels) and you would view it in the same way as any other small digital channel. But it isn't actually Sky. As with names of previous celebrity judges (many of whom haven't been associated for some time) the name "Sky" is put into the advertising to build up the image of a well-connected, professional outfit.
Ask yourself why no Live and Unsigned winner has ever reached the basic levels of touring bands like Pulled Apart By Horses, Hawk Eyes, Wild Beasts, I Like Trains, Dinosaur Pile-Up, Club Smith, Sky Larkin and so many others from the one city music scene that has kept its distance from Live and Unsigned. The massive Leeds forum thread on the subject is still running (now at 50 pages
and 33,000 views so it might be worth clicking on to later pages) see http://www.leedsmusicforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=25026
Anyway, thanks again for posting our experience. I wish you all the best.
I am listening to your band now. I notice that your Facebook site is advertising L&U tickets to your friends - how much more fun it would be for them to see you on your own stage closer to home. It can be done!
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI came across your post whilst researching accusations of Live and Unsigned being a scam.
My son's band have progressed to the area final in May via the Wildcard vote system.
I'm open minded at the moment..
My son's band have so far had a quite of a lot interest from other quarters.
They paid their £10.00 entry fee which I don't have a problem with as this shows that only serious artists will apply rather than the dross which turns up on the TV talent shows.
When they progressed to the Regional final the lads paid their £30.00 deposit which was refunded on the day.
Without sounding as though I am taking sides here I would like to point out that like any business Live and Unsigned is first and foremost a business and has to cover it's costs and hopefully show a profit at the end of the financial year.
Having progressed this far the lads are all of the view that whatever happens from here the experience has been great.
They have played in front of new audiences and gained lots of experience.
I'll come back later and let you know how they get on..
Many thanks for your comment AndyC. I would appreceiate an update later and I do wish your son's band all the best.
ReplyDeleteOn the question of what sort of business Chris Grayston is running, my answer would be covered, at least in part, by another blog just here: http://thislast.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/unsigned-and-unspeakable.html His advertising has been the subject of a recent complaint by a past winner of the event. See here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-16355713
The complaint referred to in that BBC news item has now been resolved informally. The Advertising Standads Authority website reports "after consideration by the ASA of complaints received" Live And Unsigned Ltd "agreed to amend or withdraw advertising without the need for a formal investigation".
ReplyDeleteThis is a radically different picture to the one painted by Chris Grayston in his press release, passed to and then published yesterday by Music Week. THe text of that report says:
"The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has decided that the formal investigation into talent contest Live And Unsigned will cease to continue.
The show's 2010 rock category winners Underline The Sky claimed they were yet to see the prizes advertised for winning the show in March, which included an all-expenses paid trip to perform at a festival in India and an amplifier.
At the time, events director for Live And Unsigned organisers Future Music Chris Grayston told the BBC that this was due to events that were out of the company’s hands, and the band had been offered “far more than they had won” in return.
The ASA have since closed the case and stated that they do not require Live and Unsigned to make any changes to their advertising for this year’s competition.
Grayston explained; “festivals sometimes just don’t happen. Last year some 40 festivals in the UK alone didn’t go ahead, when that happens as a prize we can only give alternative prizes as we have done to other contestants winning prizes.”
The competition organisers state that Underline the Sky did receive other prizes as promised to the Rock winners and the band were given a slot on the M4 tour – which they didn’t complete.
They were also offered recording studio time with a management agreement, the band agree that “Chris Grayston produced a contract for us to sign, and stated that we could reword the contract however we pleased.”
But they did not produce an edited or reworked contract and decided to pay for the booked studio time independently.
Live and Unsigned conclude "we were never in doubt that there was an issue. We can now continue with giving artists opportunities that are very difficult to come by in the music industry.""
The link 20.45 on May 31 was http://www.musicweek.com/story.asp?storycode=1049750
Grayston's problem with truth rolls on like a wave.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI have read many posts on this thread and would like to add my own five penny worth.
My son entered this years live and unsigned and made the regional final but has failed to progress to the O2. As far as he is concerned the experience gained, and the opportunity to play in front of a large audience was well worth the entrance fee. In his eyes there is no problem.
Whilst i applaud what Live and unsigned try and achieve, maybe the way they go about it is somewhat misleading and wrong. In my experience, and which has been pointed out countless times, is that L&U prefer the artist to sell the tickets. Having seen the acts which have progressed i have to say that i am in the mind that it is acts that sell bucket loads of tickets who progress through to the next rounds. But tickets sales cannot be the only aspect, because if the artists that went through couldn't play or sing for toffee then it would be very difficult to convince the public why the act got through.
It's so obvious that more ticket sales = more revenue. So if an act has a large following the better the chance the act will progress as L&U will want the coach loads of supporters that will purchase the tickets. It's an easy concept to see through. So it's not surprising to me as it's purely about money, but the way they go about it is wrong.
If you asked the majority of the acts if they enjoyed what they did, i'm sure they would probably do it again. But if they new that ticket sales were more important than talent then it might be a different story. The only thing that will suffer is L&U as poorer acts will be put through and people will soon realise that it is pointless (or will they? maybe people who are of a lesser calibre have more of a chance if ticket sales help their cause). But someone has to win it and good luck to them.
Reading about Chris Grayston, however, makes interesting reading. He has been in the business a long time and has helped a few artists on the way (most notebly Birdy i believe and been involved in bands himself. So he's got an ear for a talent i guess. The better acts (whether they sell tickets and go through to the finals or not) will be picked up and signed (i guess). I'm also guessing that you don't necessarily have to win the competition to become signed. Just take a look at the top 10 acts every year in X Factor or Pop Idol or Britains got Talent...and even The Voice may i suggest.
So a scam? i'm not sure where you are coming from in that sense. Misleading, yes probably. But a scam? No, not that serious otherwise the ASA would come down on him like a ton of bricks and put a stop to it. But i take your point about non existant prizes and gigs etc. But then again less ticket sales less prizes.
If the ASA see no reason to pursue him it can't be that serious can it? And if it were i'm sure people like Anne Nighingale and Noddy Holder wouldn't want to be associated with such a scam (for want of a better word)?
Don't get me wrong, i think if you can get an army of support L&U et al will love you (if you have at least an ounce of talent), and that is whats wrong. It should be a talent show for god's sake not a ticket sales show.
So to summarise: Yes they rely on ticket sales. Acts have more chance going through the more tickets they sell. Yes, it's a tad exploitative, but surely no more exploitative than making money out of watching people make fools of themselves week in and week out on X Factor and BGT.
Regards
Terry, I'm delighted your son's band enjoyed their gigs with L&U. And I appreciate your point about talent not necessarily winning through.
ReplyDeleteBut comparing him with TV Talent shows is less relevant than looking to local efforts and contacts. BBC Introducing, Bandcamp, Pledge Music and genuine diy activity are all there to be used.
Over the last ten years and more I have watched dozens of talented artists get their experience and support in local gigs, with enthusiastic promoters, radio presenters, small studios, devoted local labels, local fanzine and blog writers and local audiences. Most cities have something going. Most kids live close enough to one to gradually move into them. Where there is a talent that has a potential audience, people will notice very quickly and pass the word on. Grayston must have seen thousands of bands and he helped no one get any further than loads I know locally who have albums, international tours and reputations. "Birdy" - one single case out of thousands is a terrible strike record for someone who spends his whole life with young artists. On that count, if I was Grayston I would be ashamed of myself. In my own much more modest way I have passed on dozens of names that have helped careers get going, just like hundreds of other enthusiastic writers and reviewers. There is no one big break. There has to be a buzz of people, each doing their bit.
But thanks for posting - I've ranted a bit there, haven't I?
Rock and Roll these days is not about spivs and crooks and shabby deals - there isn't enough money in it. The people who make it so wonderful are devoted to the music they make and the people they meet along the way. Pop over to Leeds Music Forum and have a chat with some of them. They can be cantankerous, but they mean well and ther is lot of shared wisdom there. http://www.leedsmusicforum.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=7
Hi Sam,
DeleteGood to have this discussion with you.
After reading your reply, are you suggesting that TV talent shows are less relevant than local efforts?
My son is already utilising DIY ways of getting noticed. Local Gigs always help but what most artists want is the music heard by the masses. First stop local people via Gigs, then recording some stuff to hand out at gigs (or charge if they feel brave enough), then hassle local radio station for airplay, their own website, You Tube, Facebook etc etc....These are the 'normal' routes for everyone nowadays.
L&U on the other hand is offered as a quick(ish) route to fame and Glory and people WILL go for it as someone has to win it. Of course, when they do win it they will probably not be good enough for mainstream, not get signed, no record deal, no website etc but would have enjoyed the experience. In the meantime L&U have made good money out of the support..oh! and another notch on Chris Grayston's list of failures.
But lets be honest here, L&U has been going since, what?, 2007? That's not an awfully long time in terms of finding mainstream Talent is it? and Birdy IS mainstream, so lets not take that away from the Open Mic achievement. I bet if you were to contact every single Record Label in the UK how many mainstream artists they have there wont be many. Like L&U they are waiting for that 'Special' sound / artist / Act' to come dropping in their laps. So it's no different to L&U in that sense only the record labels don't mislead people out of money along the way (do they?).
What i'd like to know is that if you listen to the charts (and i don't as i'm too old for that stuff...i'm more classic rock) there are lists and lists of new acts appearing in the charts that must have come from somewhere. They don't appear on L&U, or Open MIC or You Tube (with the exception of Ed Sheeran) etc. So how do these acts get signed? How do they get noticed? Where do they go to get seen? and 75% of them use Autotune!!....a sad sad situation. So where does the 'real' talent get noticed? L&U? Open MIC? The Voice? BGT? Pop Idol? X-Factor? where?....or is 95% of successful acts success down to just pure DIY hard work?
Like most people i totally agree that local music is wonderful with some great talent around, but that it where they will always be unless, it seems, they get a lucky break. Supporting local music is good, but getting mainstream is better, and if an act truely believes they should be awarded a record deal then they will do anything to get heard, including L&U and Open Mic.
I did pop along to that forum but it seems like a Chris Grayston / L&U / Open Mic bashing forum, which i don't want to get involved with if i'm honest.
Regards
It is good to chat. But, yes, you guessed right, I do regard mainstream manufactured music as irrelevant. Sorry to be so blunt. The audience for it seems to me to be short-lived, mostly young and very fickle. There is very little creativity there and very little to get excited about. Most of its money goes to the managers rather than the artists. The fact that only Adele is really succeeding says it all. If you want to be in that territory then even Live and Unsigned is the wrong place to be. Stage school might be more relevant.
DeletePlanning to be, even hoping to be, a sales phenomenon looks to me like a fantasy position and that is precisely the position from which Live and Unsigned recruits its bands, its parents and its friends - all paying for tickets and text votes in the same way that people buy scratch cards and lottery tickets. The big exception is that there are no winners in Live and Unsigned. The promised record deals, tours and management never materialise in their imagined forms. The tour is playing next year's low-quality Live and Unsigned gigs. Grayston makes his excuses on recordings and chart hits (as with the ASA decision) and leaves. Birdy (I am almost sure) will have forged her way DESPITE Open Mic UK, not because of it. If you want more detailed chat about your son's band I'm always happy to listen and comment constructively. Email is sam(Dot)saunders(anotherdot)otley@gmail.com
I have to take issue with much of the above.
ReplyDeleteOur experience has largely been positive. Our daughter reached the final at the 02 and the journey there has done nothing but benefit her.
After her Area Final performance, Live and Unsigned brokered (and paid) for her to appear and play on the main stage at Summer Sound in Latvia.
Live and Unsigned is a business that encourages and enables musicians to showcase themselves. In our experience it has done just that.
Not everyone can win.
Tim, that is really great. I'm glad for you and your daughter. It's good to hear positive results.
DeleteIt would be nice to think that after several years of campaigns about the practices of Live and Unisgned things have started to get better for at least some of the entrants.
The main piece above was based on real experience in a previous year and I am confident that it reflects the reality it described. My own opinion remains unshaken: there are more rewarding ways of doing things and better people to work with if the talent and determination are there.
But do savour the experiences and make the most of the contacts and friends made along the way. If you want me to listen to or write about your daughter's music in the future I would be happy to be asked.
Have a look at the pictures of my five year's worth of attendance at the new talent stage at Leeds Festival (nurtured by a local venue and by BBC Introducing). There are pictures there of about 150 young bands/artists - many are now full-time (but mostly still broke) in music, others have drifted away. But this is the sort of place I believe you ought be looking for support. In the pictures you will see all sorts of other people like engineers, cameramen, writers and (most importantly other musicians in the audience looking to work with and support other musicians. All this is much more important, I believe, than "showcasing". There is no shortage of talent - the secret is to become known, trusted and respected and to be making your own way.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/samsaunders/collections/72157622052463030/
Hi Sam
ReplyDeleteMany thanks for this and the points that you make.
Best wishes
At May 25th 2013, with this blog having logged up 10,000 views it looks as though Live and Unsigned and Open Mic UK have folded or gone into liquidation. A Grayston company called Future Music is still registered.
ReplyDeleteYour comments are correct Mr. Saunders. I am a working professional musician and this culture of 'Vanity musicians' and short term thinking is exactly what is eroding the industry.
ReplyDeleteThanks Sam for your insight, very well written and thankfully received, I have been involved with a couple of bands over the years and see the frustration of the guy's in the band's, mostly all they want to do is gig and perform, and you see these big break guy's, standing in the shadows, watching their cash cow's.
ReplyDeleteI know about 3 bands that have got their "label" now and still they are getting scammed.
My boy's band have received a lot of interest recently having released their first EP, but Im keeping their feet on the ground and the vultures at bay (hopefully).
I appreciate being forewarned 😉
Thanks Sam for your insight, very well written and thankfully received, I have been involved with a couple of bands over the years and see the frustration of the guy's in the band's, mostly all they want to do is gig and perform, and you see these big break guy's, standing in the shadows, watching their cash cow's.
ReplyDeleteI know about 3 bands that have got their "label" now and still they are getting scammed.
My boy's band have received a lot of interest recently having released their first EP, but Im keeping their feet on the ground and the vultures at bay (hopefully).
I appreciate being forewarned 😉
Great stuff. Many thanks. This is a history I have left behind rally. I have heard that Chris Grayson has sold the name to his operations - so someone else is looking to bring it back from the dead. I now nothing about him
ReplyDeleteBut there's always someone on the make where talent and lack of experience come together.
The best thing that has happened in support of young bands and musicisans generally is BBC Introducing - some local BBC presenters (like Alan Raw in Leeds) have been very very helpful. Before I retired I saw a lot of thsoe bands at Leeds/Reading Fstival, where they got a good stage, good experience and a chance to play a well-organised gig to more than immediate friends and family. Far more than Live and Unsigned ever gave them.
You think his competitions are dodgy! You should try working for him! Total crook!
ReplyDeleteHe currently is a major share holder in River Studios which is under Sumic Music. He offers young aspiring people songwriting contracts promising them the earth, delivering nothing! He is still living off Birdy who he claims to have discovered.....no she entered one of his dodgy open mic competitions and won it, he did absolutely zero after that and tries to claim the glory. I know all this as I used to work for him until recently. If you have any sense, do not go anywhere near the man. He is a crook, only interested in money and not the artist. Does nothing to promote or delevop any of his so called artists! BEWARE!
ReplyDelete